Qualified name syntax/dot`.`tightfix
Quote from Darren Duncan on July 15, 2025, 9:06 pmand every other major language I look at also goes on a regular 1 year cycle, rather than waiting longer.
I'm pretty confident you'll understand my response that democracy ("majority thinking" - as suggested by "every other major language I look at [does the same]") is nothing more or less than the dictatorship of mediocrity.
Quote from Erwin on July 16, 2025, 8:27 pmQuote from Darren Duncan on July 15, 2025, 9:06 pmand every other major language I look at also goes on a regular 1 year cycle, rather than waiting longer.
I'm pretty confident you'll understand my response that democracy ("majority thinking" - as suggested by "every other major language I look at [does the same]") is nothing more or less than the dictatorship of mediocrity.
This is not just about "majority thinking". I happen to think that annual releases like this are a good thing, and I appreciate how the practice benefits any language or software product I use. The fact that lots of languages do it just mean that a lot of others agree with me. Things are not mediocre just because a lot of people agree with them.
Quote from Darren Duncan on July 16, 2025, 10:05 pm
This is not just about "majority thinking". I happen to think that annual releases like this are a good thing, and I appreciate how the practice benefits any language or software product I use. The fact that lots of languages do it just mean that a lot of others agree with me. Things are not mediocre just because a lot of people agree with them.
That's right. Things are "mediocre" only if only the "middle class" agrees with them. And then that begs for how to measure "middle class".
PS I happen to think that all these annual and semi-annual releases are a bad thing. I remember the days when I was doing SIRA_PRISE and I could spend 95-99% of my time on my actual subject. Having to upgrade my java environment each six months and my eclipse environment each six months (at distinct moments in time of course), reduced that percentage significantly. It was so plain irritating and annoying that it pushed me to just stop. I wasn't there for trying to figure out what these java and eclipse geniuses thought they had to newly offer to me, I was there for doing my project. And that six-month release schedule of which I never perceived any added value, was the final nail in the coffin to kill that project. I hadn't started that for doing installs and upgrades all the time, I had started it for achieving my goals.
Quote from Erwin on July 16, 2025, 10:39 pmHaving to upgrade my java environment each six months and my eclipse environment each six months (at distinct moments in time of course), reduced that percentage significantly. It was so plain irritating and annoying that it pushed me to just stop. I wasn't there for trying to figure out what these java and eclipse geniuses thought they had to newly offer to me, I was there for doing my project. And that six-month release schedule of which I never perceived any added value, was the final nail in the coffin to kill that project. I hadn't started that for doing installs and upgrades all the time, I had started it for achieving my goals.
Of course, you don't have to upgrade Java & Eclipse. But how long does it take to do both? A half hour, maybe?
And per typical Java, nothing else changes. It just continues to work as it did, so you can use the new features (or not) whenever you like.
You could even switch to IntelliJ and let it update itself when it asks, and let it pull new Java releases for you by specifying the version you want in your build script or project config. Effort = near zero.
Quote from Dave Voorhis on July 17, 2025, 8:26 pmQuote from Erwin on July 16, 2025, 10:39 pmHaving to upgrade my java environment each six months and my eclipse environment each six months (at distinct moments in time of course), reduced that percentage significantly. It was so plain irritating and annoying that it pushed me to just stop. I wasn't there for trying to figure out what these java and eclipse geniuses thought they had to newly offer to me, I was there for doing my project. And that six-month release schedule of which I never perceived any added value, was the final nail in the coffin to kill that project. I hadn't started that for doing installs and upgrades all the time, I had started it for achieving my goals.
Of course, you don't have to upgrade Java & Eclipse. But how long does it take to do both? A half hour, maybe?
And per typical Java, nothing else changes. It just continues to work as it did, so you can use the new features (or not) whenever you like.
You could even switch to IntelliJ and let it update itself when it asks, and let it pull new Java releases for you by specifying the version you want in your build script or project config. Effort = near zero.
Indeed, very much this.
I can understand regular upgrades being a hassle when say they are frequently breaking things such as in the PHP ecosystem, but with Java, the language itself and standard libraries, they are AFAIK very good about backwards compatibility and not breaking things, with new versions mainly just adding features.
So it should just typically be like 30-60 minutes once every 6 months or whatever to keep up to date, and you also don't have to upgrade if you don't want to.
Also, new Java versions are not just internals changes, often there are language changes too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_version_history
A few of the things that came AFTER Java 8 include:
- Java 9 - Added module support (which is distinct from packages) for both standard and user libraries.
- Java 10 - Local variable type inference
- Java 12 - Switch expression
- Java 13 - Text blocks
- Java 14 - Pattern matching for instanceof
- Java 14 - Records
- Java 15 - Sealed classes / sum types
- Java 17 - Pattern matching also in expressions
- Java 21 - Unnamed classes
- Java 23 - Primitive types in switch, patterns, etc
I personally use about half of those in my Java code, particularly the modules, switch expressions, many kinds of pattern matching, text blocks.
If I stayed on Java 8, even though Java 8 is much better than what came before, my experience would be much worse than my experience with newer versions.
Quote from Darren Duncan on July 17, 2025, 9:19 pmQuote from Dave Voorhis on July 17, 2025, 8:26 pmQuote from Erwin on July 16, 2025, 10:39 pmHaving to upgrade my java environment each six months and my eclipse environment each six months (at distinct moments in time of course), reduced that percentage significantly. It was so plain irritating and annoying that it pushed me to just stop. I wasn't there for trying to figure out what these java and eclipse geniuses thought they had to newly offer to me, I was there for doing my project. And that six-month release schedule of which I never perceived any added value, was the final nail in the coffin to kill that project. I hadn't started that for doing installs and upgrades all the time, I had started it for achieving my goals.
Of course, you don't have to upgrade Java & Eclipse. But how long does it take to do both? A half hour, maybe?
And per typical Java, nothing else changes. It just continues to work as it did, so you can use the new features (or not) whenever you like.
You could even switch to IntelliJ and let it update itself when it asks, and let it pull new Java releases for you by specifying the version you want in your build script or project config. Effort = near zero.
Indeed, very much this.
I can understand regular upgrades being a hassle when say they are frequently breaking things such as in the PHP ecosystem, but with Java, the language itself and standard libraries, they are AFAIK very good about backwards compatibility and not breaking things, with new versions mainly just adding features.
So it should just typically be like 30-60 minutes once every 6 months or whatever to keep up to date, and you also don't have to upgrade if you don't want to.
Also, new Java versions are not just internals changes, often there are language changes too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_version_history
A few of the things that came AFTER Java 8 include:
- Java 9 - Added module support (which is distinct from packages) for both standard and user libraries.
- Java 10 - Local variable type inference
- Java 12 - Switch expression
- Java 13 - Text blocks
- Java 14 - Pattern matching for instanceof
- Java 14 - Records
- Java 15 - Sealed classes / sum types
- Java 17 - Pattern matching also in expressions
- Java 21 - Unnamed classes
- Java 23 - Primitive types in switch, patterns, etc
I personally use about half of those in my Java code, particularly the modules, switch expressions, many kinds of pattern matching, text blocks.
If I stayed on Java 8, even though Java 8 is much better than what came before, my experience would be much worse than my experience with newer versions.
I use all of those except sealed classes / sum types and unnamed classes (a project use case for those hasn't come up yet) and primitive types in switch etc., because I haven't used 23 on a project yet.
Another benefit of IntelliJ: it completely automates repository checkout if you use GitHub.
And Kotlin. Would be delighted to use Kotlin on real work -- it's Java++ and C#++ all in one, but Java/JVM-compatible -- but it hasn't come up yet.