The Forum for Discussion about The Third Manifesto and Related Matters

Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Is there a language that does both what SQL does and general purpose programming?

Quote from AntC on December 1, 2020, 8:07 pm

I've been careful to say I'm talking of my experience with database-y topics.

Yeah.  There was a time when database-y topics were ***tolerated*** on SO.  Because even the SO folk themselves did not find the answer to "where to put these questions in their own corner so that those asking them will still find the answers".  After all, even the codeshitters all knew [and recognized] that database technology was important and mastering it was somewhat of a trade in its own right.  Those days are gone.  It's codeshitter walhalla now.  If you're a practicing developer with a database ***design*** problem there just simply ain't no place to go for you on SO.  'xcept if you managed to figure out how to search in decades-old questions.

Quote from Dave Voorhis on November 29, 2020, 5:37 pm

 

Assuming your answer wasn't deleted for some more mundane reason, the "thing you want is being made but isn't ready yet" explanation has probably run up against someone who has seen this all before.

People here don't enthuse over FP, but here's an anecdote from rather elden days of dbdebunk.  Obviously, the articles he published were often countered by practitioner folks with "so where is that system that works so much better than my utterly professional DB2/Oracle/SQL Server/PostgreSQL/MySQL/SQLite/...".  One day, that same criticism was replied to an answer that *I* had posted in the discussion, and before I even had the chance of getting aware of that reply, FP had already responded that "Erwin has done *EXACTLY* that".  At which point the codeshitting practitioner must have taken the bother to look at the "that" in question, and within less than 12 hrs of FP's reply found the means to decide that "that's not serious, this is just a toy".

Even if you can point people to actually working systems, they won't accept them, and the principal reason is they don't have the brain power to adapt to the buildings they were used to living in being entirely torn down and replaced with something only the bigger brains know is better [and why].  And the reason why they keep getting away with it is because they are the majority and they have been educated in a political system that embraces the belief that "the majority is always right".

Quote from dandl on November 30, 2020, 11:58 pm

 

Believe it or not I'm actually trying to help you understand how you could just possibly make a positive contribution ...

Some high-handed shithead has just deleted a (entirely reasonable, but a little muddled) q as I was in the middle of answering it. Again with no explanation nor warning to the poster. That's my last try at being positive and tolerant.

 

 The best thing to improve SO from its current state (for database-y topics) is to preserve the old Q+As and otherwise shut it down.

Says nobody else.

At least one moderator is in effect shutting down SO on database-y topics. They don't necessarily have any expertise on such topics to tell a good Q or A from a bad. I have no interest for going into battle against them -- their shadowy presence makes that impossible anyway. It's a cesspit.

Quote from AntC on December 4, 2020, 9:07 pm

Some high-handed shithead has just deleted a (entirely reasonable, but a little muddled) q as I was in the middle of answering it. Again with no explanation nor warning to the poster. That's my last try at being positive and tolerant.

I don't know if StackOverflow works like Quora, but on Quora a question is occasionally deleted by its originator -- who can do so as long as a question has no answers, at least within some timeframe -- whilst one or more answerers are in the middle of trying to answer it. Frustration ensues.

Are you sure it was moderated away?

I'm the forum administrator and lead developer of Rel. Email me at dave@armchair.mb.ca with the Subject 'TTM Forum'. Download Rel from https://reldb.org

At least one moderator is in effect shutting down SO on database-y topics. They don't necessarily have any expertise on such topics to tell a good Q or A from a bad. I have no interest for going into battle against them -- their shadowy presence makes that impossible anyway. It's a cesspit.

That sounds bad. Are you sure that's what happened? If you give me some details, I can ask on meta.

 

Andl - A New Database Language - andl.org
Quote from dandl on December 5, 2020, 12:44 am

At least one moderator is in effect shutting down SO on database-y topics. They don't necessarily have any expertise on such topics to tell a good Q or A from a bad. I have no interest for going into battle against them -- their shadowy presence makes that impossible anyway. It's a cesspit.

That sounds bad. Are you sure that's what happened? If you give me some details, I can ask on meta.

 

No I'm not sure -- as Dave suggests, perhaps it was the originator. The q had got 1 downvote when I saw it. A newbie getting a downvote means they can no longer post a Q, IIUC. So perhaps newbies are running scared of even asking. That also is toxic.

I am asking on meta, as I speak. I have 10 downvotes in a couple of hours. And I count as a 'new contributor' on meta. I'm sufficiently experienced and thick-skinned on toxic websites to be not put off (yet). If I genuinely were a newbie, I'd be judging the experience wholly negative, going by the comments and flippant answer I've got. Toxic. Toxic, toxic, toxic. Getting called a liar and troll. Unpleasant. Not professional.

Oh, also I find SO so dysfunctional, I'm entirely happy to get banned from it. So I shall keep up with my politely-expressed pushback for a little longer ...

I really know very little about the newbie experience. Given that the site aims to build a store of good Q&A and is flooded with homework and debug my code, it's hard to know where the balance should be. But that doesn't sound right.

My experience as a reviewer is that questioners do delete questions, and it's bloody annoying. Half-way in and poof! It's gone,waste of time. Can't blame that on the moderators.

Meta is different. It can be pretty feral and downvotes are seen as just polite disagreement. You can't lose reputation on meta, but you can get some interesting discussions. I don't go there often.

Andl - A New Database Language - andl.org
Quote from dandl on December 5, 2020, 6:52 am

I really know very little about the newbie experience.

It's easy to gain an impression: pick a topic on which you know nothing. (I picked C++ because I was working on that Haskell compiler written in it. Also Yacc/Bison.) Work on some gnarly real-life problem. (Because the abstract q's that lecturers impose are either too simplistic or preposterous.) Go looking for existing answers, and/or ask.

Oh, and contra your claims, the best answers were on Unix forums, not SO. I used SO to get links into them -- because they were a bit disorganised and usenet-y.

Given that the site aims to build a store of good Q&A and is flooded with homework and debug my code, it's hard to know where the balance should be. But that doesn't sound right.

What would make a 'good' Q if it wasn't in response to real-life code that wasn't working? (Per above I agree 'debug my homework' almost always means 'read the mind of a lecturer' who wouldn't know real-life coding from a bar of soap.) Relational Algebra q's are a bit different because that's (probably) not runnable code, or at least not a real-life application.

When the original founders stepped away, I got the impression the new controllers' aim for the site was a) be friendlier than it had become; b) attract more traffic. I didn't see anything about 'build a store of good Q&A'. Anyhoo on database-y topics, there's just nobody asking, and for the few who do ask (before the Q gets closed), there's even fewer answering. Whether any of the Qs or As are 'good', they never get the chance to be appreciated, because for everything the downvoters move in a lot quicker than those with a life.

My experience as a reviewer is that questioners do delete questions, and it's bloody annoying. Half-way in and poof! It's gone,waste of time. Can't blame that on the moderators.

Yep full disclosure: in this particular case, the questioner did delete the q; then posted on StackExchange instead; and got really helpful answers without downvoting or a load of negative comments. (From the comments on meta, if that q had stayed on SO, it was about to get the usual treatment from a particularly toxic 'expert'. So full credit to the newbie, and perhaps SO is a learning environment: learn to go elsewhere.)

Meta is different. It can be pretty feral and downvotes are seen as just polite disagreement. You can't lose reputation on meta, but you can get some interesting discussions. I don't go there often.

Yep feral. Didn't see much polite about it. Since I described my experience/didn't state an opinion, I don't see what a vote to disagree even means. Especially since the mouseover text for up/downvoting is exactly the same as everywhere else. How is a newbie to meta supposed to guess it's a different ball game?

Given that the site aims to build a store of good Q&A and is flooded with homework and debug my code, it's hard to know where the balance should be. But that doesn't sound right.

What would make a 'good' Q if it wasn't in response to real-life code that wasn't working?

Per my prime directive, if you wrote buggy code and couldn't debug it, nobody else will care about the question or the answer. A good question is one that will help at least 10 other people, regardless of whether your bug gets zapped along the way.

(Per above I agree 'debug my homework' almost always means 'read the mind of a lecturer' who wouldn't know real-life coding from a bar of soap.) Relational Algebra q's are a bit different because that's (probably) not runnable code, or at least not a real-life application.

When the original founders stepped away, I got the impression the new controllers' aim for the site was a) be friendlier than it had become; b) attract more traffic. I didn't see anything about 'build a store of good Q&A'.

See https://stackoverflow.com/tour:

Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers. It's built and run by you as part of the Stack Exchange network of Q&A sites. With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming.

The only change I've seen in the past 10 years or so was when they started doing job ads.

Anyhoo on database-y topics, there's just nobody asking, and for the few who do ask (before the Q gets closed), there's even fewer answering. Whether any of the Qs or As are 'good', they never get the chance to be appreciated, because for everything the downvoters move in a lot quicker than those with a life.

My experience as a reviewer is that questioners do delete questions, and it's bloody annoying. Half-way in and poof! It's gone,waste of time. Can't blame that on the moderators.

Yep full disclosure: in this particular case, the questioner did delete the q; then posted on StackExchange instead; and got really helpful answers without downvoting or a load of negative comments. (From the comments on meta, if that q had stayed on SO, it was about to get the usual treatment from a particularly toxic 'expert'. So full credit to the newbie, and perhaps SO is a learning environment: learn to go elsewhere.)

It wasn't really about programming, was it? As I think about it, if I'd reviewed that Q I would most likely have voted to move to a different StackExchange site. Maybe that's where you should hang out too. Many of the SX sites have a different flavour, in large part because they don't get the flood of homework Qs. I built roughly the same rep on Software Engineering, and I've used SuperUser a fair bit too. You posted a link to dba, but that's not one I know at all well. I poked my nose into a couple of others and got it bitten off. SO is not unique.

Meta is different. It can be pretty feral and downvotes are seen as just polite disagreement. You can't lose reputation on meta, but you can get some interesting discussions. I don't go there often.

Yep feral. Didn't see much polite about it. Since I described my experience/didn't state an opinion, I don't see what a vote to disagree even means. Especially since the mouseover text for up/downvoting is exactly the same as everywhere else. How is a newbie to meta supposed to guess it's a different ball game?

Just my 2 cents worth. I found out the hard way too.

 

Andl - A New Database Language - andl.org